it will be a "luxe" to buy an argentine polo horse!

[REY philippe]

I think that in a few years it will be a lux to buy an argentine polo horse!
airplane transport prices
tax from argentina customs
difficulties to find a good horse in argentina and to know how old is he and how he play and with wich player (professional?)
rapport quality/price?
price market are growing those last years in argentina
and finally with the difficulties to breed and the probability to have a good polo horse if i have a good one i am not going to sell him!!!
I think that professional players today dont bring in europe their best horses!!!!!! it was different 10 years ago.
statistics say that 70% horses playing are TB! in france you have a choice of 1000 TB each year exit from the racetrack from 600/1000 euros with top origins of course all of them are not good for polo but try to find a good 6 years raza polo argentino ......good luck!
I think we can breed polo ponies all everywhere in the world the problem is to find a good domador and petisero and also take our time to put them to maturity.
I am sure that already top players bring top TB horses from england or france to argentina!
training top TB in europe to export to argentina!
May be it will be the polo business for the Future.
(sorry for my english!)

[Sam]

I think that the excess of Tb's in europe from racing means that it's almost a responsibility of all who love racing or polo to bring those horses into new work such as polo. Good breeding, and all are registered with Weatherbys stud book or with some other breed registry means you can pick a horse with the necessary characteristics and breeding to re-train for polo, albeit without knowing if the horse will make a good playing pony. The problem comes when you pick a horse at the sales and cannt be absolutely certain of how sound it will be, there is a reason they are selling the horse on right? Some are sold due to the current global recession we're in as trainging fee's are high in the UK, but others could be on the verge of breaking down.

[Laurence de Mello]

I am curious as to your comparison on a 6 year old TB coming off the track in Europe for 600/1000 Euros and a 6 year old Argentine polo pony costing considerably more.
Try to go to the tracks to buy a even a TB filly of two years with good blood in Europe! How much do you think you will have to pay? a very few TB ex race horses are adaptable for polo and even if they are, almost ALL of these horses are being sold CHEAP because they are losers or have other faults. Plus the fact most have been exposed to drugs and ALL have been exposed to psychological stress and serious limb stress.
Comparing a 6 year TB ex race horse and a 6 year old TB Argentine polo pony is totally redundant. A six year old TB argentine polo pony is equal to a two year old TB at the race track auctions in France or UK that has never raced and is without the training. The 6 year old Argentine horse has a career and category and is at the start of its career. The two year old TB is at the start of its (racing) career, should have no injuries but has no training, no history and is basically a blind buy if you intend to use it for polo.
Some very good polo horses have indeed come off the tracks, but that average is less than one in ten. But to achieve this one in ten chance, one has to then invest at least three years of good training and then even if this horses does well, this will not be a horse that is easily manageable for a patron or 0/1/2 goaler. Anyone that has proof of the contrary to this I challenge them here.

Also your argument is misleading because TB's are not horses for patrons. For most patrons do not have the legs or experience to ride TBs, Especially horses that have “raced”. Why do the patrons come to Argentina to buy ponies? Because in europe they can’t find the "cross blood" that is good for polo yet at the same time manageable enough and strong enough to cope with the patrons skills and tournament demands. Why? The average handicap of tournaments in Europe is 8 goals, where bad fields and bad weather make it tough on the TB. TB’s don’t adapt very well and when polo is played by patrons (female/masculine) and other amateur players, they do much better with stronger and more TB “cross” (criollo) ponies that can cope with the ground and the level of play. Playing an 8 goal tournament on a good polo TB where most of the patrons are 0 and 1 goal players therefore is not a good idea! The TB needs to "move" and accellerate from 0-10 in a few seconds, thats its nature. It's a bit like going to do the shopping in the village in a Ferrari F40, its really not the right place for it!

Most amateur players in Europe don’t have the skills to ride and manage the pure TB and especially a TB coming “off the tracks”. The TB is, whether we like it or not, very fragile in its bones and in its brain! So, the TB needs a person that knows how to manage all that energy in an experienced and measured way. That’s why so many good polo TB’s are sent to Europe fit and then just a few weeks later the Argentine seller gets the call saying the horse has an injury! Why? Not because the buyer was sold a bad horse (although sadly that does happen). But because the TB is a finely tuned speed machine, its parts are very fragile so the person managing that machine needs to not only understand the dynamics of that machine, but how to stop and start that machine without injury to its body OR brain. These horses are considered “hot bloods. They are bred to perform with maximum exertion. Because of this high performance they are also very prone to accidents and other health problems and complications such as pulmonary bleeds, abnormally small hearts, low fertility rates and most importantly (detrimental to polo) a very small hoof considering body mass ratio. TB’s have the highest injury and illness rate out of all the registered working breeds. So if a TB horse is being sold cheap off the track auctions it is ALWAYS for a reason! Especially if it is a mare.

But we can’t make a rule. There have been many fabulous TB playing polo ponies coming out of other countries like France/UK/Australia and elsewhere. But it is a fact that out of a 1000 pro playing polo ponies 995 are Argentine. Yes, transport costs in Argentina have gone up and so has the export tax, but in relation to owning a quality pony US$6,000 is buttons in the light of things, especially as “quality” TB polo mare are going for $US50,000 and up. Plus what you get here and what you pay for there (Europe) the cost balances out. Remember you get what you pay for.
I have been witness to conversations by Europeans coming to Argentina, buying not only the cheapest ponies they can find but then having the disgusting barbarity to put those ponies on A SHIP FOR THREE WEEKS just to save US$2,000 per pony!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You suggest exporting TB’s to Argentina as a business; well you are a little late for that, for it has been going on for over 145 years! You should know that the British were bringing TOP TB’s to Argentina in 1865. As you know the first thoroughbreds were created in England in the 17th and 18th century and all good TB’s can trace their roots back to THREE brilliant Arabian stallions and 74 foundation mares of English and oriental (Arabian and barb) blood.
That same blood is here in Argentina in the thousands, some Haras Bloodstock centres) here are among the best TB breeding centres in the world. A better business would be for you to come and buy older good polo mares and then take them back to Europe to then breed with your thoroughbreds! Or better and kinder still would be to buy the good retired (through injury) polo mares in Europe (that the French usually eat!) and then breed from them.

Argentine horses don’t need to prove what they are, for they have already proved their leading place in the world of polo. Their superior performance has nothing to do with tax, transport ect. This is not the fault of the quality of Argentine polo horses but of beaurocratic bullshit. It’s not fair that they should be compared to cheap “faulty” thoroughbred ex racehorses, for there is NO comparison. So my advice is, if you find a good horse irrelevant of where it comes from, buy it, but don’t try to be cheap, after all, this is why polo is called “the sport of kings”, it’s not a sport for poor penny pinching peasants.
Advice for the week: buying polo has ALWAYS been a luxury.........and ......
you can’t make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear!
(Do see my blog, World of Polo or flakes playground)

[Adriano Di Gianvittorio]

The Criollo breed has it's roots as far back as the Conquistadors, until the Spanish went to South America there were no indigenous equine species on that continent.

You can if you wish, go back to the videos of the Open of the 70's and 80's and witness the Criollo ponies playing what was, at the time, the very highest level of polo (40 goal). Since those days, the Criollo Breed has remained a mainstay in polo and South American farm life/work due to it's hardiness in quasi - extreme climates and the breeds unerring calm nature and disposition.

As polo has changed in South America and the rest of the world and with the game becoming more and more professional so has the need for faster, more responsive horses become more apparent. To that end began the cross breeding of the TB and Criollo - which has eventually become the modern type of polo pony in the low, medium and high goal aspects of the game.

Part of the argument could be: 'has the sport (of polo) affected the required genetic dynamics/capabilities of the equine athletes?' I think the answer has to be yes. It could also be argued that if the genetic blueprint were not already available - as in the case of the TB - the changes in the game and the evolution of the game of would not have been possible.

To that end, this is only a small part of exactly where the sport would be without the introduction of the TB bloodlines.

There is no doubt that the Criollo has played a major role in the fundaments of the sport. As polo has progressed further toward the modern game and as evolution increased the speed, timing and hand to eye co ordination of the human counterparts the need of a new type of pony became paramount.

My point is not that the modern, professional game has created a hybrid saddled with the desires of human nature but that the levels of commercialism in the sport have created a void in the basic thought process of the equine psychology.

Personally, it comes down to horsemanship skills and management and not funds. Do the best for your horses and they will do their best for you; learn some basic horsemanship skills and you will see a marked improvement in your team of horses. It's only about research and an open mind . . . . .

[REY philippe]

Dear Laurence I am happy that you answered me especially you !!!!!!!
First of all I don't want to compare two horses so different and impossible to compare and you explain that very well!
My opinion is that today a lot of players in many countries (not patrons who represent 2% of the players!) take reformed TB to make a polo horse and that 's why i think in the future it will be a luxury to ride an argentine polo horse!
And may be my english is not good enough but a luxury in the good sens like something special and exclusiv!I
remenber the answer of Hug Evans who never ride an argentine polo horse????? it means that in Australia they play polo with TB or other breed.
I was surprised during my last travel to Miami (Palm beach polo club) try to find argentine polo horses in the stabbles! only american TB.
All the young players have a string of TB only and they try to play with this organisation:
of course it's a problem of cost!
what do you think is it better to try to play like that or say to those polo students that it's better to go to play tennis because they have not enough money in their pocket! ( like you say in your blog.....)
Of course raza polo argentino is our breeders dream!
thank you for your advice we have already +/_ 20 argentina polo mares good origins (Heguy/Donoso/Gracida.....) for breeding.
our favorite book is AACCP annuary where Dr Alberto heguy advices help us a lot to find the good polo bloodlines for ours stallions.
Contrary of Agentine we have to learn understand and make our own trial in breeding polo horses and it's a great pleasure to speak and exchange about our passion with polo breeders worldwide .
I promess if i travel to Argentina I bring you a bottle of FRENCH champagne!

Philippe

P.S: personnaly I don't eat horse meat

[Laurence de Mello]

Dear Phillip,
thank you for your most gracious reply,

when I say "patrons" it is because they are indeed a main part of the export market for polo ponies going out of Argentina and I say patrons also because they are the ones that have more chance of spending more for a pony or ponies yet often have little true horsemanship skills. As I said the TB, needs to be managed well and usually anyone 1 and under have little skill to play a good TB unless they are already experienced riders that have hunted or evented.
I agree that you think its unfair to tell students to go to the tennis club if they cant afford to play, but there is a certain point Phillip that the player either exceeds the horse and in order to improve needs to invest in a horse of a better category! otherwise they dont improve, that is a fact! unless as I said before they are playing 8 goal tournaments and the demands are less that they can have good rounded horses that are well trained, respond well and cope with the stresses and strains of a less expert player. Pure TB's from racing stock are not the answer here.
Or you have the other scenario where the horse exceeds the capability of the rider and what do we get apart from a damaged horse? yep a dangerous player! T-boning all and sundry because they cant switch the engine off or even change gear in time!

So apart from what Adriano says above, although I do agree that treating horses well is not only a moral requirement but a vital part of good performance. Even so,good and sound young horses for polo cost reasonable money. Its not just about training, it is also about capability. As I say you can be as kind and clever as you want and ride brilliantly but if it is a donkey, you are not going to take it to the open are you Adriano?
Or you can have a brilliant TB horse and an novice polo player and its a bloody disaster. In the past 4 years alone, I have been witness to at least five near fatal accidents during practice chukkas because the horse was too much for the player!

Going back to phillip, I doubt very much that your students could cope with an ex race horse off the track even if it is well trained.

I look forward to the Champagne, for which of course I am eternally indebted to the French.
I shall of course provide the steak and the entertainment, as long as you promise not to pack me off to La Bastille or stick your knife and fork into my TB'S ;-))

regards
L X

[Adriano Di Gianvittorio]

I think this is getting a little confused.

I was trying to say that there are horses for courses and no I would not take donkey to the Open! I have however been involved in the making and selling of a few horses that have played at this level.

I feel that due to the commercialization of polo there are many horses out there that should not be allowed to play but are forced to as that is the function they have been bred for.

This comes down to a lack of forethought from the seller/breeder. When money and livelihoods are at stake scruples seem to fly out of the window. Hence inexperienced patrons/players are exposed to horses that either they should not play or that the horse did not have the temperament for polo in the first place.

Please understand that I am not trying to be controversial. I'm just saying that with the better management and training the majority of horses will suffer few to no vices and that if the average new player/patron put some more time, effort and research into their purchases instead of blind faith in a pro/horse dealer maybe there would be fewer poor quality horses out there.

[Kim Sherman]

You must have met some terrible people to be so cynical.

Patrons, professionals who ever they are, must have a long time (our clients try their ponies for 2 weeks on holiday) before they buy a pony and still we have a money back guarentee if our customers are not happy with their pony after it arrives in England (within two months, if kept at out stables).

If dealers or selllers cannot commit to this there must not be enough ponies to go round!

[Adriano Di Gianvittorio]

Dear All,

I was trying to make a few comments about horsemanship skills in general and the validity of the criollos bloodlines in polo.

This seems to have been taken the wrong way. I will ask for my comments to be removed by the site as I would not like to continue this discussion.

Regards

ADG

[REY philippe]

Hello Adriano
Thanks a lot for your comments who are very interesting and everybody need to have a clearest vew about situation.
Your point of view is necessary and i will be happy that you continue the discussion.
Philippe

[Sam]

No racehorse in the UK that has come straight from the track will have been exposed to prohibuited substances as all are strictly prohibted and we have a massive and comprehensive testing programme including testing the favourite, lost favourite, winner and anything running under form as well as reacting to intelligence and testing in training at the trainers stables. The UK horses are very very different from America where it is accepted to use steroids in training horses, where as in the UK you'll be lucky to find positives for ACP which is used on green horses for loading them into the stalls during training. Just to clarify thats all.

"Plus the fact most have been exposed to drugs"

[Kim Sherman]

It does not matter what you ship to anywhere else in the world to breed from or if you wish to buy retired racehorses in some other place in the world because it has good breeding, what makes an Argentina polo pony SO special can only be seen when you experience the gouchos and horsemen in the Pampas having the knowledge to find good confirmation and character then having so much time, endless patience, peace and traquility, and certainly not overworked with too many ponies spend five solid years, from the day they are born, training their farm/polo ponies. Until you can replicate this anywhere else in the world, these ponies will allways have a huge value anywhere else in the world.

[Laurence de Mello]

Dear Adriano,

please dont retire from the page,

we all have different opinions and thats great! this is a democracy (ha ha) and free speech rules. (well as long as it is not in politically correct UK!!!!!!!!!!!!) but thats why I moved to Argentina !!!!!!!!!!
Nobody is disagreeing with you Adriano, its probably all my fault as I to tend to go off on a tangent and then the original discourse becomes a blur, just as I do when having a chat with friends on the sofa ;-)). But thats where the fun is.
Sam kicked my ass about saying "most" horses off the track are exposed to drugs, well maybe not in his stables but legal or not it certainly does go on, maybe less in the UK but I KNOW it does in Italy and Argentina because I have SEEN it. But thats a whole other discussion which I would like to have with Sam as I think he races and It would be good to have his expert view on that topic.
Well guys, waiting for your response!

besos

laurence